Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

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Neo created the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Dear All.

I recently interrupted a thread on this forum regarding 'the glorious 12th'. I hadn't meant to be disruptive or divert the conversation; if I do so then I apologise to the original poster and subsequent contributors. I say that in all sincerity.

However, Over the past few days there are 'men' hiding on Ilkley and Burley moor with guns waiting for other 'men' to make a whole load of noise and scare ground nesting birds into flight so that they can be shot by the afore mentioned individual's with guns as part of a 'sport'.

The semantics and morality of my argument can be debated all day but my view is that this is 2014 and whilst many of us eat meat and prefer not to know what goes on between the farm and the super market, we should not be killing living animals for fun. We, as a species should be better than that. I acknowledge that there will be an opposite view or argument that states that this is taking place to provide food but the provision of food should not be a social occasion or a form of entertainment, after which the 'men' feel like they have earned the right to return to their families as the hunter..... they are at best a point and click gatherer and at worse cowards. Should a real man not take on another that has willingly entered the contest and be capable of fighting back?

I am not posting this to be inflammatory but actually to state my position and to enter into a debate which will likely be emotional but I can not see how this practice can be acceptable to decent, thinking individuals. It is bullying in every sense of the word - the birds have no ability to know what is going on and therefore fight back - they just get scared and killed by people who have a much better developed frontal cortex and therefore should have a better sense of morality and ethical behaviour.

Is hiding behind a wooden wall and killing ground nesting birds for fun acceptable and how does anyone justify that as sport?

I'm really disappointed that in a time when humanity can look inside an atom and send messages from the UK to Australia under one second, some of us get all dressed up to kill defenceless animals in the name of fun.

We should be better than that.
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mcnab replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

It's not my scene, though I long to go and bag a brace for the pot now and again, without the hype. But I think your viewpoint is massivly flawed.

Firstly, in 'farming' some barbaric practices go on for the the whole of the course of life and death of, say, a chicken, but you don't care to consider that, and by being blinkered to that massive scale of cruelty and continuing to consume, you cause it.

The Grouse are all eaten, they are a delicacy. I think they are frightened into flight dozens of times in a normal non shooting day in between being pampered by gamekeepers living in houses which would otherwise be holiday cottages, and don't really know what has hit them when they are shot, it's not like they are crossing themselves as they take flight, little hearts beating and feeling angst as they see their fellow birds shot down in a cloud of feathers. The grouse butts mean the shooters are camouflaged from them, the idea being not to frighten the grouse and divert them from their flight towards the guns. Death is usually instant, although there are sometimes wounded runners and the dogs soon bring those back to be humanely despatched. Without the sport I doubt the grouse would exist in significant numbers.

A glorious life, compared to a chicken going from box to hook to gas or foam or shredding machine.

The spotlight has left Fox hunting but it still continues, one hunt takes a hawk out to get round the ban, others just carry on as normal, all the sabs have packed up and gone home or regrouped to fight the frackers.

There's tradition, camaraderie, bloodlust, excitement, adrenalin, all kinds of emotions are felt when involved in bloodsports and plenty of hypocrisy practiced by those for and against.
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BertieWooster replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Excellent post Nabbers.

The issue for the anti-campaigners is that the sale of shooting rights brings in about 60K a year for 'management' of the moor. Provide that cash, and then BMDC might be willing to talk.

(note: I've always been against shooting on the moor, but that's because it should be treated as a space owned and used by the people of Ilkley. Even though I recognize this is quite illogical as shooting rights were part of tyhe Middleton settlement_
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dun lurkin replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Hi neo
Good to see you raise this as a topic its something that raises a diverse set of views reflecting the diversity of folk in the town.
Having lived in city, town and rural village I can see both sides of the debate are valid and compromise difficult where there is true passion.
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itsafaircopgov replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

I am with Neo. Why should we suffer braying idiots driving 4x4s and using shotguns that they can barely control coming onto Ilkley Moor, which was purchased at public expense, to slaughter birds that are almost inedible.

Shooting game is the preserve of the wealthy and stupid. If they really must blast away at grouse, partridge, pheasant et al ( et al is very delicious, so I understand and lovely plumage) then please do so at your own expense rather than being subsidised by the tax payers of Bradford.
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mcnab replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

itsafaircopgov wrote: I am with Neo. Why should we suffer braying idiots driving 4x4s and using shotguns that they can barely control coming onto Ilkley Moor, which was purchased at public expense, to slaughter birds that are almost inedible.

Shooting game is the preserve of the wealthy and stupid. If they really must blast away at grouse, partridge, pheasant et al ( et al is very delicious, so I understand and lovely plumage) then please do so at your own expense rather than being subsidised by the tax payers of Bradford.


"Why should we suffer braying idiots" The 'we' are part of 'you' ie ie local populace.....are they 'braying'? or are you?

"idiots driving 4x4s and using shotguns that they can barely control"

any proof of this lack of control or idiocy ? The tools of 4x4 and shotguns seem prerequisites.


"to slaughter birds that are almost inedible." Yet sold at £19.00 a platter in a local pub" ????

"Shooting game is the preserve of the wealthy and stupid" :ohmy: :ohmy: :ohmy: Proof of statement?


"then please do so at your own expense rather than being subsidised by the tax payers of Bradford" Yeah but they are subsidising the moor by coughing up £60k for the shooting rights? So they are not being subsidised or doing it at anyone but their own expense?

What is worrying IAFCG is that you used to affect some connection to the local constabulary.
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Neo replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Birds nest on our moor - are they not welcome?

'Men' use technology that they had no hand in constructing, but feel empowered to use that technology to kill the Bird's who make their home on our moor.... some of the 'men' shoot them, some beat the parents out of their homes and make them fly just high enough to be shot and some of you make no effort at all other than to eat what some one else put's in front of you when you feel like a pie.

It is wrong to kill animal's as a form of entertainment. It should be our obligation to think a little harder and deeper and leave the waxed jacket in the wardrobe.
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itsafaircopgov replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Sorry Macnab, but textural deconstructionist arguments will not work. However, I applaud you for trying to impose them.
Do I think that most shotgun users are dangerous? Yes I do, few users have even the most basic training in how to use them safely.
Are Grouse inedible? Of course, unless they are properly hung and have the shot removed.
Braying idiots? OMG have you ever heard these people when they get together
4x4s? Its part of the uniform just like the green wellies (Hunters of course), green moleskin trousers ( I have a chap who knocks these up for pittance), gillet (it gets cold on these moors) and flat cap ( I wouldn't dream of wearing this sort of thing normally).
Wealthy and stupid? It goes without saying.
Game shooters are always so defensive just like plate shooters are always so embarrassed.
All I can say is that shotgun users pose slightly less danger than all those users of high powered rifles who go around the local fields killing bunnies, foxes, bambis and anything else that has the temerity to come within range of their .222 or .245s.
Well Macnab maybe you will agree with me that life on the Great War Forum is so much simpler. See you again soon
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mcnab replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

How many accidents have involved shotguns in the last 10 years? Very few so the dangerous argument doesn't stack up. Most users are very responsible individuals and maintain a code of conduct, the breaching of which would see the offender sent home in shame.

Training is basic..."never ever point a gun, loaded or otherwise, at anyone" much becomes instinctive, the rest is etiquette, manners matter in the field.

Grouse are inedible, but oh hang on they aren't if properly prepared????? eh?

Braying idiots.....we are looking at a class issue here then? A nonsensical statement.

4x4s....decent wellies La Chameau surely or Aigle? Tweeds are warm when wet and quiet, and traditional...it's nice to have some traditions...think moleskins would be frowned upon, tweed breeks not....All fit for purpose and evolving with use of technical fabrics.

Wealthy and stupid? What a ridiculous statement, call in at an Appletreewick pub after a shoot, farmers, builders, plumbers, computer programmers, a general mixture of average joes.

.222? Obsolete.... .245 is a rare one too.

How many accidents have involved lawfully owned rifles in the UK over the last five years?

Hope your research on the WW1 stands up to better scrutiny than your class envious nonsense on this thread......but do you not think your last comment sounds a bit stalkerish?

Upshot as Bertie pointed out. Grouse shooting on the moor brings in revenue, I say it brings other small benefits; land management and conservation. If the Antis can rally and rattle a tin and match that, then I reckon they would win and enjoy their emulsified chicken nuggets in happy innocence.
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itsafaircopgov replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Macnab, I have to take issue with the following statement....."What is worrying IAFGC is that you used (sic) to affect some connection to the local constabulary.
Sorry, but I have never claimed to have any connection with with any local police force. What a most peculiar allegation to make. It reminds me, sadly, of those witch trials in 1950s America....."are you or have you ever been a member of the local co"....can | interrupt you Mr Macnab and say that on this issue I plead the fifth amendment. Perhaps instead of MaCarthyism we have Macnabism. Correct me if I am wrong but the Ilkley More Forum allows people to post comments with a degree of anonymity. Do you really want contributors to justify themselves in terms of what you believe are their present or former occupations. Would you make the same request of those whom you suspected to be accountants, lawyers or bankers. Perhaps you would be more content if I posted my Curriculum Vitae on to this forum so that you could dissect, with much alacrity, my past and present. However, if you want my resume then it is only fair to other members of this forum, that you submit yours for scrutiny. To use that most prosaic of phrases, Mr Macnab, 'the ball is in your court'.
I am most pleased that that you took the opportunity to use the phrase 'stalker' in reference to my comments. But that is because you where meant to...and so appropriate, don't you think, in terms of our debate.
As for your views on firearms, they flatter to deceive.
Hopefully your research will will prove as fruitful as mine, but I suspect only time will tell as to whose will reach the largest audience.
Enough of this banter.For now it is time for sleep, perchance to dream.
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mcnab replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Oh did I confuse your identity with another lunatic? Please accept my apologies whilst I am being thankful for accidentally triggering the above response which might alert someone in a position to give you the help you need.

Hopefully that person will be yourself, look in a mirror dude, have a conversation.

I think my true identity is embedded in the 1000+ or so previous posts I have made, enjoy the journey of discovery or pm me your fb addy and I'll add you as a FB friend, I spout the same stuff and much much more under my true identity there; wanna know why? because it comes from the heart and a bit of thought goes into it too.

Hope you overcome your problems and find some inner peace. It's good you aren't in to guns.

Hugs xxx
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Sparrowhawk replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

To re-spark this discussion, Bradford Council are deciding on the fate of the grouse shooting agreement on 30th September at City Hall.

As a regular walker on the moor myself, I am all in favour of completely prohibiting the practice. Whilst there is certainly much debate to be had on the wider issue of grouse shooting, we must remain focused on the local issue of our moor.

The actions of the shooting parties and those under their employ have drawn very negative publicity towards Ilkley Moor - in terms of conservation, leisure experience and educational interests.

Here's to a good result for Ilkley Moor!
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Neo replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Sparrowhawk wrote: To re-spark this discussion, Bradford Council are deciding on the fate of the grouse shooting agreement on 30th September at City Hall.

As a regular walker on the moor myself, I am all in favour of completely prohibiting the practice. Whilst there is certainly much debate to be had on the wider issue of grouse shooting, we must remain focused on the local issue of our moor.

The actions of the shooting parties and those under their employ have drawn very negative publicity towards Ilkley Moor - in terms of conservation, leisure experience and educational interests.

Here's to a good result for Ilkley Moor!


Many thanks for your reply. I, for one will watch the outcome of the debate with interest.

My view continues to be that this is not a sport; it is barbaric because the "game" (what a dreadful term to apply to a creature that lives on our moor) can not win and therefore wrapping it up as something other than taking pleasure from killing animals is dishonest. Claims of managing the moor are ridiculous, given that the moor managed its own affairs before the "men" with guns shot on there and it will continue to manage itself once they depart. I was walking up there this weekend and what an incredible place that is. To be able to see far into North Yorkshire and the Dales, Airedale, Calderdale, Kirklees, and Bradford is simply wonderful.

This precious piece of our very own back garden, accessible by just walking out of our homes and up the hill is a paradise for us and should be a paradise for the animals that choose that as their home as we have chosen the Wharfe Valley as ours.

I know that as a keen walker I occasionally scare the found nesting birds and they fly up out of the heather and I regret that, however when I scare them they come back to the moor alive.

The council to whom I pay tax should not condone the killing of animals for fun, no matter how many pieces of silver they receive - humanity is better than that.

www.ilkleymoor.org (I have no affiliation with IlkleyMoor.Org however I wanted to post a link to their site)
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BertieWooster replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Neo wrote: Claims of managing the moor are ridiculous, given that the moor managed its own affairs before the "men" with guns shot on there and it will continue to manage itself once they depart. I was walking up there this weekend and what an incredible place that is. To be able to see far into North Yorkshire and the Dales, Airedale, Calderdale, Kirklees, and Bradford is simply wonderful.

This precious piece of our very own back garden, accessible by just walking out of our homes and up the hill is a paradise for us and should be a paradise for the animals that choose that as their home as we have chosen the Wharfe Valley as ours.


You're right that moor would manage itself without shooting parties. But it wouldn't be the moor that you so enjoy, which has been managed as a grouse moor since the mid-nineteenth century. The heather that dominates it only survives thanks to the killing off of the ferns--debated ad nauseam on this site previously. The small groups of trees like Willy Hall's Wood were deliberately planted to provide high nest areas; there were none before 1800. Without the current management scheme, or something similar, the fern would take over.

If you like listening to the skylark and the lapwing, their presence is a result of culling predators like stoats. While the overall biodiversity is reduced as a result of shooting, what might be considered the 'tame/attractive' bits of nature have been enhanced. The moor is not wild, it's been a managed space for a very long time.

Which is not to say it couldn't be managed as a grouse moor without shooting. It just requires someone to pay for it, both in cash terms and in personnel.
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Neo replied the topic: Game Shooting on Ilkley Moor.

Bertie,

Yes, the moor's eco system and bio-diverity would likely alter, but this in itself is part of nature, however your point is well made and understood.

In terms of the cost of maintaining this relatively small area (compared to the areas in North Yorkshire such as the Dales (yes, thats a different dynamic given the farming), North Yorkshire Moors and Nidderdale Area of Outstanding Beauty, etc'), it is incumbent on the council to provide funding and their job to balance the books (that is what they are there for). Allowing shooting in order to fund the upkeep is akin to offering McDonalds the chance to sell burgers in school at lunch time to help pay for the books. OK, slightly exaggerated analogy, but I am sure you take my point.

That said, I am not the kind of person who pitches up on a forum and wants public service to fund my version of utopia whilst I bleat on about paying too much tax and not being willing to do anything myself and ilkleymoor.org appears to be a good place to start.
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