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TOPIC: Woofa Bank - Burley Moor

Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 04 Jan 2013 20:47 #42989

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Oops! - nearly forgot. I'll contact Aubrey Burl in the next few days & throw the idea at him to see what he says. He might take a while to reply though, as he's an old-fashioned letter-writer & doesn't really bother with these new-fangled computer things! B) Dr Paul Devereux could well be into this though.....
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 04 Jan 2013 21:43 #42990

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I have no torch for SpaceHive, but having been involved in the birth of some voluntary groups, and the death of others, it does seem to allow a group to grow without a detailed plan or a treasurer. Arguing about the first can mean the group dies before birth, the second takes some finding.

Someone here could simply post a time and venue to meet and see who turns up; or a few of you can message each other, then meet. The second means you do not start of with nowt but nutters, at least not with nutters you think are wrong.

If you do try and form a group it would be best if you ended up with a simply main aim. I think something better than:

'To encourage, support and develop a through survey of the historical and cultural sources, sites and artefacts of Ilkley and Ilkley Moor.'

Would do. I would avoid words like 'protecting' or 'saving'. In fact I would avoid writing the aim down until a few good folk and true had talked about it, but for that a few of you have to meet and talk.

Whatever you do not start with a 'public' meeting without sorting stuff first. Ilkley history suggests you'll get a thousand hours of blather and a group that loves itself.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 04 Jan 2013 22:46 #42991

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I like the fact there is all this ancient stuff lying around waiting to be discovered and rediscovered and that a bank washed away by a flooded stream might reveal some flint arrowheads, my father found one as a lad!

I like the fact that the mystery of the purpose of the various carvings can never be known for sure and I'm glad that people have to go to some effort to find them.

We can see what happens when things are preserved, railings are put around them. We can see what happens when sites are easily accessible;see the new carvings that are springing up around he Cow and Calf! Someone remarked to me today, that some "new names" have appeared carved into the rocks, they felt a line had been crossed.

But I enjoyed researching EM LANCASTER of the 1st batt xxiv foot, and I guess in 100 years new carvings may present another researcher with quite a challenge!
Last Edit: 04 Jan 2013 22:54 by mcnab.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 05 Jan 2013 14:01 #42992

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BertieWooster wrote:
@Solarplexus, I agree with your points re. No one looking after this stuff. Unfortunately, EH aren't the answer. They're officially responsible for the Panorama Stones, and look what a terrible mess they're in (not helped by the fantasies of the Bradford archaeologist of course)

English Heritage are not legally responsible for the Panorama Stones, the legal responsibility rests wholly with the "owners" of any scheduled monument. In this case with Bradford Council.

The problem is there is no legal obligation on the part of the "owners" of scheduled monuments to manage & maintain them in a positive manner, unlike the natural equivalent a SSSI.

EH can only encourage, cajole, persuade the owners to look after them. (If Bradford Council deliberately damage them, then that's a criminal offence).

So Bradford Council (& its employees) can get away with benign neglect of the Panorama Stones.

Similarly the Twelve Apostles on Burley Moor are the legal responsibility of the Bingley Moor Partnership (the private owners of Burley Moor), but they don't have to do anything to maintain them.
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Last Edit: 05 Jan 2013 14:33 by solarplexus.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 05 Jan 2013 20:54 #42993

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solarplexus wrote:
...English Heritage are not legally responsible for the Panorama Stones, the legal responsibility rests wholly with the "owners" of any scheduled monument. In this case with Bradford Council.

The problem is there is no legal obligation on the part of the "owners" of scheduled monuments to manage & maintain them in a positive manner, unlike the natural equivalent a SSSI.

EH can only encourage, cajole, persuade the owners to look after them. (If Bradford Council deliberately damage them, then that's a criminal offence).

So Bradford Council (& its employees) can get away with benign neglect of the Panorama Stones.

Similarly the Twelve Apostles on Burley Moor are the legal responsibility of the Bingley Moor Partnership (the private owners of Burley Moor), but they don't have to do anything to maintain them.

But you'd expect the local archaeologist to make regular proclamations to preserve these important sites - but does very little indeed. In fact, sites are getting destroyed! So what is the local archaeologist paid to do??? Considering the austerity measures hitting hospitals, schools, etc, may be if the local archaeo can't be bothered standing up and fighting for the things they're supposed to be interested in, we should get rid of them. What purpose do they serve if they can't be bothered standing up and fighting to preserve the things they're supposed to be figureheads for? :angry: EH and Bfd Council would no doubt respond with their usual vacant glazed-grin visage, shuffling nervously back into the prawn-sandwich brigade passing the buck and maintaining myopia, hoping people don't complain. :whistle:

However - if we go on the moors & write our name on one of the rocks, they'll all come out of their beaurocratic hovels, shouting & bawling in the Press, reckoning they care about our heritage and how people are damaging ancient sites. :S That's about the best we can expect it seems.

(another rant over!) :)
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 05 Jan 2013 20:57 #42994

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Bradwan wrote:
...Someone here could simply post a time and venue to meet and see who turns up; or a few of you can message each other, then meet. The second means you do not start of with nowt but nutters, at least not with nutters you think are wrong.

If you do try and form a group it would be best if you ended up with a simply main aim. I think something better than:

'To encourage, support and develop a through survey of the historical and cultural sources, sites and artefacts of Ilkley and Ilkley Moor.'

Would do. I would avoid words like 'protecting' or 'saving'. In fact I would avoid writing the aim down until a few good folk and true had talked about it, but for that a few of you have to meet and talk.

Whatever you do not start with a 'public' meeting without sorting stuff first. Ilkley history suggests you'll get a thousand hours of blather and a group that loves itself.

That all sounds spot on as far as I'm concerned. :) Common sense Bradwan.
Last Edit: 05 Jan 2013 20:58 by Bennett.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 06 Jan 2013 09:44 #42995

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solarplexus wrote:
BertieWooster wrote:
@Solarplexus, I agree with your points re. No one looking after this stuff. Unfortunately, EH aren't the answer. They're officially responsible for the Panorama Stones, and look what a terrible mess they're in (not helped by the fantasies of the Bradford archaeologist of course)

English Heritage are not legally responsible for the Panorama Stones, the legal responsibility rests wholly with the "owners" of any scheduled monument. In this case with Bradford Council.

The problem is there is no legal obligation on the part of the "owners" of scheduled monuments to manage & maintain them in a positive manner, unlike the natural equivalent a SSSI.

EH can only encourage, cajole, persuade the owners to look after them. (If Bradford Council deliberately damage them, then that's a criminal offence).

Sorry, but this is pedantry. The Panorama Stones are scheduled monuments, which means EH have a responsibility under the legislation. Scheduling is described as a 'legal protection'.

In any case, EH have (AFAICS) done nothing to encourage, cajole, persuade or legally require Bradford to look after the stones. But, yes, it's primarily Bradford's responsibility and they're doing nothing, except have their workers pour paint on the rocks.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 06 Jan 2013 13:38 #43000

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BertieWooster wrote:
Sorry, but this is pedantry. The Panorama Stones are scheduled monuments, which means EH have a responsibility under the legislation. Scheduling is described as a 'legal protection'.

I'm sorry too, because I can't find anything in the legislation & supplementary notes that empowers English Heritage. For a statutory body, they are remarkably toothless.

The "legal protection" you talk of, is a hollow term, it only protects scheduled monuments from deliberate damage/disturbance (& from unauthorised use of metal detectors).
English Heritage can't legally force Bradford Council to maintain the Panorama Stones - i.e. take them to court & compel them to maintain, repair, restore etc. - much as we all want them too.
The only thing that EH can do is put the Stones on their "At Risk" register & publicise the hell out of it. A name & shame approach.
The fact is that Bradford Council (& its employees) don't give a stuff (I've used that phrase before in another thread!) & can just ignore whatever anyone says and there isn't a damn thing we or English Heritage can do about it.


Then again???: I had another look at the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 - one section might be of use. (I didn't think it applied, because I believed the Panorama Stones were owned by Bradford Council & therefore only the primary part of the legislation was relevant - now I'm not so sure).

Question: Anybody know what is the true ownership / legal status of the Panorama Stones?

If Bradford Council are not the owners, but are the "legal guardians" of the Panorama Stones then maybe the following section could be used to "force" Bradford Council to maintain them to an adequate standard - i.e. they have a "legal duty" to maintain them.

(Where it says "Commission" - think English Heritage)

The section is:
13 Effect of guardianship.

(1)The Secretary of State [and the Commission] and any local authority shall be under a duty to maintain any monument which is under their guardianship by virtue of this Act.
(2)The Secretary of State [and the Commission] and any local authority shall have full control and management of any monument which is under their guardianship by virtue of this Act.
(3)With a view to fulfilling their duty under subsection (1) above to maintain a monument of which they are the guardians, the Secretary of State [or the Commission] or any local authority shall have power to do all such things as may be necessary for the maintenance of the monument and for the exercise by them of proper control and management with respect to the monument.
(4)Without prejudice to the generality of the preceding provisions of this section, the Secretary of State [or the Commission] or any local authority shall have power —
(a)to make any examination of a monument which is under their guardianship by virtue of this Act;
(b)to open up any such monument or make excavations therein for the purpose of examination or otherwise; and
(c)to remove the whole or any part of any such monument to another place for the purpose of preserving it.
(5)The Secretary of State [or the Commission] or any local authority may at any reasonable time enter the site of a monument which is under their guardianship by virtue of this Act for the purpose of exercising any of their powers under this section in relation to the monument (and may authorise any other person to exercise any of those powers on their behalf).
(6)Subsections (2) to (4) above are subject to any provision to the contrary in the guardianship deed.
(7)In this Part of this Act “maintenance” includes fencing, repairing, and covering in, of a monument and the doing of any other act or thing which may be required for the purpose of repairing the monument or protecting it from decay or injury, and “maintain” shall be construed accordingly.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 06 Jan 2013 13:49 #43001

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*sigh*

Sure you're right. Good luck with the project
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 06 Jan 2013 14:11 #43002

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BertieWooster wrote:
*sigh*

Sure you're right.

Nope - I've no idea who owns the Panorama Stones, I've no idea if Bradford Council have any "legal duty" to maintain them, I've no idea if English Heritage could force them to.............

Section 21 allows for the transfer of (ownership / guardianship of) ancient monuments between local authorities & the Secretary of State - perhaps that's another solution - Bradford Council transfers responsibility for the Stones to English Heritage.

The legislation has been on the books since 1979, so I would have thought someone far more qualified than me, would have already pursued the angle of guardianship of the Panorama Stones.
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Last Edit: 06 Jan 2013 14:17 by solarplexus.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 06 Jan 2013 15:03 #43003

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BertieWooster wrote:
Good luck with the project
If the project was ever to work, then whatever group got set up would need the support of English Heritage & the West Yorkshire Archaeology Advisory Service.

I started this thread, because of Woofa Bank (Burley Moor) - I'm still interested in knowing more about it. i.e. how old it is, what it was built for etc.
But to understand anything about Woofa Bank, one needs to know what has happened in & to the landscape over the last several thousand years. The changes wrought in the last 100 to 200 years would be a good start.
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Last Edit: 06 Jan 2013 15:22 by solarplexus.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 06 Jan 2013 23:11 #43007

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The name Woofa .... Any idea of the meaning or significance? Link to wolf, or earlier version of wolf ...
Or a family name?
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 07 Jan 2013 16:43 #43008

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Jasper wrote:
The name Woofa .... Any idea of the meaning or significance? Link to wolf, or earlier version of wolf ...
Or a family name?
I don't know anything about the meaning of the name, but it does strike me as slightly strange that there should be two of them relatively close together i.e. the one on Burley Moor & the one at Addingham - both of similar ages.
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 07 Jan 2013 16:56 #43009

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Agree. I have come across 'Woof' as a contemporary family name. May, or may not, be a connection?
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Woofa Bank - Burley Moor 07 Jan 2013 17:59 #43010

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Jasper wrote:
Agree. I have come across 'Woof' as a contemporary family name.
"Woof" - in a rather old dictionary, is the same as "Weft" - as in weaving, whether for cloth or for baskets.


I put - "Woofa" viking - into a couple of search engines, not really expecting anything much to come up - on Google the first entry was this:

"Tittle World: Tittleshall
tittleworld.blogspot.com/2006/08/tittleshall.html
1 Aug 2006 – The Tittleshall story is that there was a viking calle Woofa the Boneless (meaning indistructable, not that he was a Great Dane) he had a son ...

Just had to follow the link:

"The Tittleshall story is that there was a viking calle Woofa the Boneless (meaning indistructable, not that he was a Great Dane) he had a son called Tyttyla. They were both much loved and respected in the area and tyttyla had a hill named after him, Tittles Hill, aka Tittleshall.
Interestingly Woofa also started the Chiltern 100s,.........

........ The Viking reference through me off the scent initially, because it appears that the Wuffings (as the dynasty is called) were not Vikings but Angles. Wuffa founded the Kingdom of East Anglia around 520 uniting the North Folk and the South Folk. His son Tyttla came to the throne in 578 and seems to have ruled until 593. The dynasty lasted off-and-on for about 350 years before being conquered by the Danish Vikings.
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